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www.tolkien.rs • Pogledaj temu - Melkor i poreklo zla

Melkor i poreklo zla

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 Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod Mephistopheles u Pon Nov 05, 2012 12:46 pm

E ovako dok sam malo lutao po netu naidjoh na jedan interesantan esej o Melkoru i zlu u Tolkinovom svetu pa ko hoce nek procita pa da vidimo slaganja i neslaganja sa ovim clankom.Ono sto me najvise zainteresovalo je to konacno pitanje zasto je Melkor postao toliko destruktivan?Jesu li njegova ambicija,ponos,velicanstvenost uzrok pada?Ili je Iluvatar svega uzrok???

Veoma zanimljiva tema pa ko zeli nek procita i baci komentar :)


The Problem of Melkor and Christianity
Melkor is a problem. I mean this not just in the sense that he is a problem for the Ainur and Iluvatar, and threatens the very existence of Middle-Earth – though this alone would certainly be enough to call him the biggest problem in Arda. I mean that Melkor is a problem in the theological sense, if one were to approach Tolkien’s mythos as a sort of religious metaphor (using Sayers’ definition of a metaphor). Though the Ainulindale certainly does not map onto the Genesis story, nor is it intended to, it suffers from some of the same confusions and apparent inconsistencies that the Christian story does. Most notable is the problem of evil: if God created everything, and everything is good, where does evil come from?

I felt confident that we successfully explicated much of this issue in our Wednesday discussion, which I’ll very briefly summarize and is basically Sayers’ argument mapped onto the Silmarillion. Iluvatar created Being, and that was Light, but everything that was Not-Being was Darkness. In creating Light, he also necessarily created its opposite, Darkness, which was not bad in itself but simply a result of its opposite. Turning from the Light is sin. As Elrond argued of the Ring’s power to corrupt, “Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.” Corrupting the Light into Darkness is evil. This act is that of Anti-Light, direct opposition to Iluvatar’s will and creation. To use an example, Melkor’s “vilest deed” that was “most hateful to Iluvatar” was the corruption of Elves, the Light, into Orcs, the Dark (Silmarillion).

This is an elegant answer to the first part of the question. Sin is a physical act of turning away from the Light, and evil is the Anti-Light, that which corrupts the Light into Darkness. But then we run into three follow-up questions: where does the Anti-Good come from, what is the line between sinfulness and evil, and how did Melkor become evil, if he was created by Iluvatar? The first and third questions are similar, because Melkor is the ultimate Anti-Good for he is directly opposed to Iluvatar’s will. It is clear that his acts of corruption of others, such as of Feanor and Sauron, are evil, and that makes Melkor evil. But who or what corrupted Melkor? What was the act that turned him from simply sinful to the embodiment of evil?

To approach this, we will first have to explore the concept of free will. This is a tricky concept in reference to the Ainur, because Tolkien never explicitly states that they were granted free will, instead describing them as independent beings, “each with their own thoughts and devices,” but not all-powerful (Silmarillion). Given this, we can assume that they were given some degree of free will, though as offspring of Iluvatar’s thoughts, they could not operate independently of him. Melkor, as the most powerful and knowledgeable of the Ainur, desired to “increase the glory of the part assigned to himself,” and sought the Imperishable Flame in the Void. As Flieger noted, the best and brightest are often the ones to fall the farthest into darkness, and it is no surprise that Melkor grew weary of his limited power and believed that he deserved more. Here, as Melkor develops his own thoughts, we see him turning from the Light and towards sin. But when did this become absolute evil? Many Men and Elves turned from the Light at some point, but they were not evil.

I think that Melkor’s greatest evil was not defying Iluvatar by desiring the Void – it was his contempt for Iluvatar’s creation and will, and his own arrogance in believing that he could create better than Iluvatar himself. He does not just create music in opposition to Iluvatar’s, but rather directly challenges Iluvatar’s power in a musical show down where he has the audacity to compete with Iluvatar. Once defeated, Melkor does not admit his lesser power, but becomes angry and vindictive. By refusing to back down and challenging Iluvatar, Melkor crosses the line from sinful into evil. When one’s inner impulse is turned to actively seeking Darkness, rather than an occasional venture towards it or a tendency towards it, as Men experience, he becomes evil and is no longer just sinful.

But, if Melkor was inclined towards evil, and he was an offspring of Iluvatar’s thoughts, does that mean that part of Iluvatar from which Melkor came was also inclined towards evil? Here, one could again turn to free will as an explanation, but I don’t find that sufficient. Melkor’s desire for Darkness had to come from somewhere. It might be useful here to use Numenor as an analogy (warning: here be speculation, as this is not a perspective explored in the Silmarillion). It was discussed in class that perhaps some of the blame for the fall lies with Iluvatar, for tempting the Numenoreans to pursue Valinor and immortality in the first place. He granted them extended lives and a paradise on earth – but not Valinor. In so doing, he may have made them feel that they were getting “closer” to being Elves, who were seen as a sort of “chosen people.” This temptation, and a fear of death, was ultimately too much for the Numenoreans, who believed that they had become close enough in nature to the Elves that they should rightfully join them in Valinor. In the same way, was Iluvatar’s own power too much of a temptation for Melkor, who believed that he, by being given more power than the other Ainur, was a step closer to being Iluvatar himself? The Numenoreans, like Melkor, were not evil or even inclined towards Darkness in the beginning, for they feared death and desired immortality before being corrupted by Sauron. It was the temptation of Valinor that led them astray. Did Iluvatar mislead Melkor by giving him too much knowledge, thereby planting in him greed for more power? Can we blame Iluvatar partially for Melkor’s fall? This is dangerous territory because it means that Iluvatar was not flawless. It means that Melkor’s tendency towards evil was fostered by Iluvatar himself. Iluvatar did indeed create evil, because he created a being capable of committing evil. This is a statement that I am not bold enough to make. On the other hand, I’m also not convinced that Iluvatar must be flawless like the Christian God.

Bringing this back to Numenor, I would like to briefly defend the Men and maintain that they suffered an unjust fate. Sauron, the treacherous, was to blame because he committed the ultimate sin of corrupting the Light. He directly opposed Iluvatar’s will by interfering in and trying to change the fate of Men. Of course the Numenoreans feared death – none of the Ainur were even able to tell them where they would go or what would happen to them after death. True, they committed a sin by not having faith in Iluvatar’s plan, but that does not make them, or even Ar-Pharazon, evil, just human. Sauron should therefore have been the only one to suffer the punishment for the Numenoreans’ actions, because they did not understand the extent of their sin while Sauron most certainly did. Then again, it could be argued that the Numenoreans were given another gift by being drowned, since we do not know what happens to them in death.

In conclusion, I find the Melkor problem to be irreconcilable with Christian thought. The thing that makes it different from Christianity is that Melkor and the Ainur were offsprings of Iluvatar’s thought, and there is no perfect analogy for this in Christianity. So where did Melkor’s desire for Darkness come from? I can only come to the unfortunate conclusion that it came from Iluvatar himself.
Oh, you think darkness is your ally. But you merely adopted the dark; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING!
The shadows betray you, because they belong to me!
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod Daemon Blackfyre u Pon Nov 05, 2012 5:33 pm

zanimljiv tekst.
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod alcesta u Sre Nov 07, 2012 5:16 pm

What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you dreamed? And what if, in your dream, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if, when you awoke, you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod Mephistopheles u Čet Nov 08, 2012 3:14 pm

Oh, you think darkness is your ally. But you merely adopted the dark; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING!
The shadows betray you, because they belong to me!
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod Mephistopheles u Čet Nov 08, 2012 3:16 pm

Mala ispravka:Ainuri su potekli indirektno iz Eruovog uma!:)
Oh, you think darkness is your ally. But you merely adopted the dark; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING!
The shadows betray you, because they belong to me!
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod de Hammo u Pet Nov 09, 2012 3:20 pm

Pa, ako uzimaš hrišćansku analogiju, nema puno razloga zašto bi se Eruova misao/um, toliko razlikovala od npr. pojma Svetog Duha, koji je nedeljivi deo Boga Oca/Sina.... iako sva ta priča o analogiji sa hrišćanstvom mi je uvek bila malo smorna i naginjala preteranom pojednostavljavanju stvari i svođenju na poznate uzore...
Oblique strategy number 56: Balance the consistency principle with the inconsistency principle.
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod alcesta u Sub Nov 10, 2012 12:07 am

What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you dreamed? And what if, in your dream, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if, when you awoke, you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod Dain u Sub Nov 10, 2012 3:06 am

Ajoj.

Kad gledam ovako neo-filistinski chini mi se da je Tolkin mnogo bolje opisao pad Melkora nego shto je to u Bibliji ikad opisano. A nije to ni daleko od istine.
Ako je Stari Zavet (kao religijska knjiga jedne male grupe ljudi iz starog veka) vecj utrapljen kao jedna od svetih knjiga hrishcjanstva, onda je inherentno popasheno da je Bog jedan i da nema nishta van njegove volje. On je tu da zajebava, kusha, baca ljude u kitove, testira, pretvara zhene u so, i generalno se ponasha kao seronja. Sve kao neku izvitoperenu naknadu sa to shto je stvorio choveka, zahteva bezuslovno poshtovanje i veru.

Nazhalost po hrishcjansku crkvu, nekako su prezhiveli zapisi starih Grka, pa se chak i moderni psiholozi ukljuchili u raspravu, te iz sve te starogrchke divne i tako jebeno primalne literature izvukli porazhavajucju chinjenicu za ljudsku rasu: svaki chovek prolazi kroz iste faze razvoja i sazrevanja. I KROZ ISTA OSECJANJA.

A Grci su lepo opisali i Edipov i Elektrin kompleks, i mogli su josh uvek da svoje bogove smatraju personifikacijama generalnih ljudskih osobina, a ne omnipotentim bicjima, shto je hrishcjanstvo prilichno nesportski podnelo i ako se pogleda, skoro sve crkvene zapovesti su su direktan udar na Stari Vek. Ali svi grchki mitovi su otvoren poligon za psihologiju...chak i Frojd onako surov i sirov je skontao slichnosti.

Pa tako mu dodje da se svi veliki sukobi u mitologiji mogu svesti na otac/sin relaciju... Bog i Lucifer, Bog i Adam (primetiti slichnost Lucifer/Melkor i Vilenjaci/Adam).. i nije to neshto shto je nepoznato. :D
"Willing is not enough, we must do. Knowing is not enough, we must apply."

"I don't like jellyfish, they're not a fish, they're just a blob
They don't have eyes, fins or scales, like a cod
They float about stingin' people in the seas
An' no one eats jellyfish with chips and mushy peas.
Get rid of them!"
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod Nimrodell75 u Pet Nov 23, 2012 8:35 pm

Eto, posle nekih pet godina, igrom slučajnosti, eto mene ponovo na ovom forumu. Iskreno, mnogo sam srećna što ovaj sajt još uvek živi i što je Sauron promenio skin Krčme... ne znam šta će mi Shieldmaiden ili Aradela reći na ovo, ali najiskrenije, drage moje, lepo je posle toliko godina videti dobru promenu, i isto tako, videti staru bandu koja se još uvek drži. No, emocije i najbolje želje treba istaći prvo (pogotovo za ova dva najdraža geeka, Alcestu i de Hamma i HighDukea koji nije na ovom topiku i Saurona, odnosno, onog hebenog futoškog kupusara kog nisam srela nikad, ali za baju, koji nije bio svestan da mu pomažem sve ove godine zato što radi dobar posao i nešto što je plemenito, te mi kanda i drago što ne zna da sam njegovim članovima sve ovo vreme bila na usluzi - a bilo ih je, onih što mi uđoše u trag).

Enough with pleasantries and truly warm feelings, 'cause I'm not in the mood for extra registration to go to waste. As an answer to Mephistopheles and his good question (dear Mephistopheles, I'm going to answer you in English, 'cause that's the only way to be actually noticed in larger area and possibly heard where it matters - but not promoting myself, just this website which deserves that kind of promotion, 'cause it prevailed madness of LotR movies). The greatest problem for the western world (when it comes to interpretation of Tolkien’s work) and its understanding of Tolkien's cosmology lies with their own understanding of monism and schisms inside the catholic church and the fact that Tolkien was lying to himself (I don't think he did it intentionally, but through his all life he was trying to solve the puzzle and give it a meaning - just like Goette's Faustus) and to the entire world. I'm still amazed with a fact that people still believe that Tolkien didn't have any doubts when it comes to mortality of men and the Second coming.

Oh, this will be a long post... and I don't like that fact, 'cause people nowadays are not prone to reading long posts (you know. TL'DR versions are preferred)... wish I could do a video reply, but unfortunately, I don't have bloody energy and time to do it.

Tolkien started with poetics of story in time (and he actually nailed that arse Lewis), and he was right on claiming that poetics of story in time is the only valid one when it comes to true plausible story-telling in genre that is questionable... The ever torturing questions were - how to explain his own existence, mortality and the fact that he's afraid to die (no matter he claimed he's good catholic). Always take in account that we're talking about the man who was actually involved in the 1st World War, the man that has seen all meaningless deaths, the frailty of human life (never forget that, if you belong to any of the nations from Balkans, you can actually understand his point of view) . There was big question before him - why do I or people around me, good people, need to vanish even though universe persists, no matter Armageddon , there has to be more, 'cause, secretly, I feel, there's more than life than this... There has to be more, 'cause I've seen atrocities and I've seen Hell itself, and there has to be more. You can read his cries in each letter he wrote... he actually wasn't a good catholic and his story, lifework, shows that, no mater the appearance.

He was in doubt his whole life and the different ’historical’ POV's he had created (point of views that still linger disputed in Histories of the Middle-Earth) show us he was actually trying to solve the puzzle of ontological and philosophical questions like - why I'm, here, what's my purpose and what's the meaning of my life - with strong emphasis, on why am I here and if I am, why I need to cease to be.

He's Elendil – his incarnation, and you have to accept that that fact, for him, no mater what he claimed officially, there has to be more to life than this.

Tolkien was not stranger to eastern myths, he was not stranger to paganism or dualistic set up of the world either. In Ainulindale we can see the traces of zoroastrism, christianity, dualism mixed with monism. Iluvatar unlike Jahveh didn’t grant Free Will (only humans have this privilege, a bitter-sweet gift – mixed with the fact they have to die and as such, they are alien both to Ainu and Eldari – and they are the ones that resemble Melkor according to Eldari and their historical writings collected in Simarillion). And the strangest thing that actually doesn’t stem from christianity are the three primeval songs of Iluvatar and Ainur – each time Melkor tries to sing his own melody thus creating a chaos and disonance, at the end of the third song, Iluvatar gets up and shows anger – then he says:

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: .Mighty are the Ainur, and
mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur,
that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth,
that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no
theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can
any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove
but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he
himself hath not imagined..
(Simarillion, Ainulindale)

Unlike Jahveh, Iluvatar is active in shaping those ’perverted’ visions and he acknowledges his responsibility – because he is The One – and Ainur are offspring of his thought, including Melkor. This resembles very much zurvanism (subcategory of zoroastrism) where we have forefather Zurvan (time) and his two rulling sons – Ormuzd (the spiritual, good one) and Ahriman (the material, evil one). As you well know, Melkor’s greatest mistake, as well as Sauron’s, was binding their power and being to material plane and both of them lost the power to even shape their forms as they wish, as Ainur do. So, that’s the spot where we can find traces of dualism and dualistic thought on how the world works.

The greatest help in understanding Melkor’s fall is actually Njegoš’ work, his Ray of Microcosm – the situation between God and Lucipher and their different views on one ’Truth’ caused by different points of views. At the beginning, God (just like Eru) knows about Lucipher’s spiritual rebellion, different understanding on origins, creation and right to rule, but unlike Eru, he’s testing, but not confronting nor saying directly that each vision, even their deeds stem directly from him – ’cause he had given them all Free Will. But similarity between Njegoš’ Satan and Tolkien’s Melkor is in that different point of view on one Truth – on what’s really important, look:

But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed
good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme
progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his
own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he
sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to
himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of
power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.
He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable
Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his
own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and
he was impatient of its emptiness.
Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with
Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own
unlike those of his brethren.
(Simarillion, Ainulindale)

Bolded section shows different comprehension and expectations on what should be done, how power should be used. Both Melkor and Lucipher have the greatest gifts and both of them are Jack-of-All-Trades and both of them crave for personal part of power.
Conclusion: When it comes to Eru-Ainur-Melkor and their parallel with christianity, people tend to think that the answer is hidden in archetype of first hubris and the fall from Heaven, but that particular comparison is not enough if we want to understand the entire conflict. Iluvatar unlike Jahveh openly states that all things have uttermost source in himself and that includes even Melkor’s distorted vision and deeds, meaning – dualism is present in the basic premise (bogumilism is also good system for understanding this situation).
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 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod de Hammo u Ned Nov 25, 2012 12:04 am

A, šta velite na ovaj neočekivani obrt :)
Ne verujem da je iko očekivao nešto ovako, da ne kažem nekog ovakvog :D

Ali da ne benavim više, ne bih ja ovde nešto dodav'o, jer je tekst tačno ono što i ja mislim, samo, naravno u rudimentarnijem i neobrazovanijem obliku :) Koren problema sa razumevanjem i tumačenjem Tolkinovog sveta je oduvek ležao u simplifikaciji njegovog pogleda i vizije sveta. Ako već treba da se "tolmači", monodimenzijalni pogled kroz njegovo narečeno katoličanstvo je slab i nedovoljan, naročito što uglavnom izbegava ili ne vidi ono oko čega smo se davno, davno složili: ako je Frojd mogao da svet svede na Eros i Tanatos, LotR u korenu nosi Tanatos, strah od smrti, koji je nespojiv sa "dobrim vernikom" i obavezno nosi u sebi koncept krivice... Osim toga, misliti da neko ko je toliko širokog poznavanja da je čak koristio i slovenske reči, a koreni patuljačkog se mogu naći u jezicima srednjeg istoka, sveo svoj kompletiran univerzum na eideolon hrišćanstva bi bilo ne samo smešno, već, za dobrog i iskrenog katolika, donekle i grešno... Ne zaboravite, osnova hrišćanstva jeste Isus, njegova žrtva i njegovo vaskresenje i uzdizanje na nebo te njegova beskrajna ljubav... Glorfindel, Gandalf jesu vraćeni, ali za ljude nema takvog obećanja...tu puca svaka pa i najjača paralela sa hrišćanstvom kavo mi poznajemo i kakvo je, pretostavljamo, i TolkinI ispovedao. Osnova hrišćanske vere ne postoji u stvari. A osim toga, kao što gornji tekst odlično ističe, za razliku od judeohrišćanskoislamskog Boga, Eru se ne folira i kaže da je on sve i da je sve od njega, te nema potrebe za raspravom da li je zlo proizvod boga ili čoveka....
Oblique strategy number 56: Balance the consistency principle with the inconsistency principle.
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Član
Član
 
Postovi: 1125
Pridružio se: Čet Okt 17, 2002 10:35 pm
Lokacija: Bgd.

 Re: Melkor i poreklo zla

Postod alcesta u Pon Nov 26, 2012 9:10 pm

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ::T:: ::T:: ::T:: ::T:: ::T:: ::T:: :krevet: :sunce: :smitten: :kisses: :inquisition:

Dakle, ovih dana mi je strašna frka pa opet nemam vremena za eseje, samo da se izrazduševljavam što nam je Nimrodel opet tu :kisses: i dao Eru da navratiš još ponekad, makar koliko de Hammo. :da:
Kasnije kad pročitam sve valjda ću imati šta da napišem i na temu :mrgreen:
What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you dreamed? And what if, in your dream, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if, when you awoke, you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?
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Član
Član
 
Postovi: 8806
Pridružio se: Sub Mar 15, 2003 9:34 pm


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